Date: October 3rd 2005

From: Kalavai Venkat <history_judge@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005

Dear Harish, GS and Neelakantan,

<<<Harish: Is that why Bhindranwale was declared a Sant, on most
sikh sites he is addressed as Sant Bhindrenwale, 99% of sikh sites
spew hatred on Hindus, infact Sikhs hate Hindus more than any other
group (atleast this is true for western Sikhs), they spew so much
hatred that a Hindu
I know even setup a site known as sikh myths to expose their
propaganda.

Websites are not a fair indication of public mood. All Khalistani
sites are funded by ISI. But the fact is that after brief flirtation
with separatism, Sikh hostility towards Hindu ended and importantly,
it was possible to kill the terrorists. Most Khalistanis anyway
migrated to the West. This is not to say that there is no distinct
Sikh identity. There is. But there are also numerous things common
to Sikhs and Hindus.

<<<Harish: In Zafarnama Guru Govind was saying how the hill rajas
were idolators and that he
was an idol breaker.

Dayananda Sarasvati expressed similar attitude. Many Sufis and
heterodox Bhakti movements were borrowed this aversion for idol
worship from Islam [Prof. David Cook jokingly said that it is hard
to tell whether most heterodox Bhakti schools were fifth column or
not] and ignorantly attacked orthodoxy. Sikhism was also not exempt
from such influences.

<<<Harish: Agreed but then caste Hindus would also oppose marriage
with a Hindu (genuine Hindu) born into a Chuhra or Chumar family but
have no hesitation in marrying other caste Sikhs, how is this
justified?

Please list the historic cases when Chamar stood by Hindus the way
Jats did and we could discuss further. Culturally, there is nothing
separating caste Hindus from caste Sikhs. Preference for bride and
groom from one's own jati is natural. Most Hindus are brainwashed
into `hum sab ek hai' or `hum sab ek jaise hai' mentality. In
reality, jatis preserved pluralism and hence there is nothing wrong
in preferring matrimony within one's own jati or with compatible
jatis.

It is very common among `Dalitists' to seek an upper caste bride to
better their status when they become successful in life. I would be
discussing this too in my paper next week. They actually break off
from their jatis and hold their jati women in contempt. They never
marry women from jatis below their own status. It would appear as
if `love' seeks to marry up! These are clear signs of low self-
esteem. Others should not sacrifice their daughters for this menace
and instead should raise their children fully aware of this.

<<<Harish: Khalistan movement was mainly a Jat Sikh thing so Jat
Sikhs also massacred many Hindus,

Yes, they did. But you are not going to measure the Sikh
contribution by that temporary deviation alone, are you?

<<<GS: And when you were 21, how could you make a living

Your parents support you.

<<<Neelakantan: I find that your worldview is rather rigid -
somewhat like George W. Bush's. For example, "Hormones don't wait.
Girls go astray. If I see a 25 year old woman still singe then the
parents have failed."

In that case, you are either with me or against me! I am not a big
admirer of middle path. Amen! :-)

<<<Apart from that, you are perhaps presenting a idealized,
sanitized view of arranged marriages (call it HAM or anything) and
then claim it is the best. The ground reality is different. In the
traditional arranged marriage, the boy and the girl were not even
involved in the decision. Over the last one hundred years, this has
changed.

This merely proves my point: HAM was never ossified. But how do we
know that a hundred years ago girls had no say whatsoever? Do we
merely believe missionary tracts? Did girls in other contemporary
societies have better say than Hindu girls? Is it reasonable to
evaluate a society from another period using today's obsessions as
standards? Quite often, the modern women are far more exploited than
women in the past were. But the Westernized Hindu mind is ready to
self-flagellate itself using Western stereotypes as standard.

It was never my argument that there are no problems in arranged
marriage. My point is that extended family, adherence to traditions,
unselfish devotion to children and emphasis on values and ethics
form the core of Hindu traditions of which HAM is a product. If
families try to conform to these ideals, which actually make life
very harmonious, and which is an enjoyable process, the resultant
HAM is highly successful beyond anything any other form of marriage
could offer. I think the problem is that many of you are not trying
to comprehend my POV [or I am not communicating well] and often try
to lump every failed, selfish `sab chalta hai' marriages as HAM.

<<<Still, there is a lot of strain on the girl's family, so much so,
the birth of a girl child causes considerable gloom in many circles.
The problems of dowry, etc. may have a non-Hindu origin, but exist
very much in the Hindu community. I don't see how you can brush them
aside.

I have not brushed aside dowry problem. I merely pointed out that
dowry is not the creation of HAM. This is evident from the fact that
dowry is exchanged even in courtship marriages. Why do we blame
every social malaise on Hindu traditions? Prejudice against the girl
child is a serious issue. But one must remember that traditional
folks would be shocked even if one were to suggest that they abort
the child. This practice is directly related to decline in
traditional ethics.

<<<Similar thing can be said about caste prejudices and oppressions
that we see today. That the caste system worked in the distant past
is no reason to ignore the present.

I would rather let you read my detailed paper on this next week. In
short, caste system worked then, it works now, and it could work in
the future. If missionaries attack VHP then I know that VHP does
something very effective. If missionaries attack caste then I know
it is an impediment to their proselytizing efforts. Jati/Varna is
something Hindus must be proud of. Please read my paper when it goes
public and provide your feedback. I would be happy to be corrected
on any point.

Thanks.


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